I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. Mary had this early body. Something went wrong with your request. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. Yeah. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. It doesnt mention sin there. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. So do it. Lets debate the Apocrypha! But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. Thats fine. Shameless plug. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? So it would-. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. We wouldnt expect it. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. Enough Jews were reading the deuterocanonical books that a leading rabbi at the time had to declare that they were not Scripture. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. Thank you very much, Steve. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. No. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. All right. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. He offered them in the debate. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. So Im not going to comment on that. As far as Revelation chapter one to six, I dont see anything thats in there that talks about Mary. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. And we know this because this is explicitly stated in scripture. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . I mean, I have to really think about that. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. So feel free to answer that briefly. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. Okay. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. But it doesnt say anything about him being bodily assumed or anything. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. We see this in Psalm 69:25. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. So we have to read the context. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. What am I to do with this? It can also refer to a half sibling as well, such as in the Old Testament, the word for brother is used to refer to Ruben as being the brother of his half brothers. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Steve Christie also has his own website. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. Yeah, sounds good. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? Okay. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). Because thats what the Catholic Answers encyclopedia states. So Im going to cover four of them. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " Or are they all good? And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. . In that respect Marys Magnificat parallels Hannahs song in 1 Samuel. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. Email steve.christie@mrcaustralia.com.au. So while not common, it is used. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. So I dont know if that answers a question but probably the bodily assumption. He was preceded in death by both his parents. Locals is a free speech platform. The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. How would you treat that thing? A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. I dont think he could do that. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. So lets just stick to scripture. All right. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: Sure. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. Im not sure what your question is. It doesnt even imply that. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. So multi-part question here. Yep. The relevance would be that you are using it. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? Probably not like any other piece of wood. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. Discover Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie 's Biography, Age, Height, Physical Stats, Dating/Affairs, Family and career updates. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. Honestly, Id have to think about it. In fact, the term original sin like immaculate conception is not found in the Bible or in the church fathers until the time of St. Augustine. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. Maybe a little too much. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. Their issue is not about Mary. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. So there was something sinful about Jesus? Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. Finally, as H.G.L. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. 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